Curse

Wise · Mar 29, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Excellent points. You have clearly demonstrated a solid grasp of the theory of game balance. I think it might have been a mistake to demonstrate balanced vs imbalanced with individual player builds because you may have led some people into thinking that a balanced build is simply a collection of balanced characters.

To everyone who thought this: it is an understandable mistake to make but the simple fact is that every build will have one-dimensional characters, even balanced builds. The reason for this is because certain dimensions (ie healing) are so important that they are worth devoting a single character to at the expense of utility. For instance, the monk is not going to be doing any damage, or pretty much anything other than making red bars go up, but that's ok because in the end, those red bars going up is pretty important.

So I think this leaves us saying, "Ok, we know what 'balanced builds' are and we want to promote these builds, now how do we do so?" I think the very first thing that absolutely must be done is to eliminate any kind of rewards for being inflexible. Here I am referring to the ability to choose a single map and create a build that will win specifically on that map. Guilds that do this are able to sacrifice flexibility because they know that their particular playstyle will be rewarded more often than not. Hence there is no real incentive to run a balanced build when you are able to pick the map you play on.

The first step to promoting balanced builds then, would be to eliminate this option by randomizing map choice, both in tournament and ladder play. Then teams would be forced to bring a flexible, balanced build which will be able to compete on any of the maps. Drew the Jade Isle? Better be able to fight 8v8. Drew the Frozen Isle? Better be able to split. Drew Nomad's? Better be able to protect your runner. Because guilds would have to prepare for these eventualities, they would have to run a balanced build that is able to switch tactics during a match.

Sol Is Pyrrhus · Mar 29, 2007, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

To be honest, I think there should be a game mechanic to prevent spikes. For example, you cannot lose more than half your health in one second.

To be honest, I think there should be a game mechanic where you can't make another person lose health. I mean, how are we supposed to have fun if we're dead half the time?

Blame the Monks · Mar 29, 2007, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wise

Excellent points. You have clearly demonstrated a solid grasp of the theory of game balance. I think it might have been a mistake to demonstrate balanced vs imbalanced with individual player builds because you may have led some people into thinking that a balanced build is simply a collection of balanced characters.

To everyone who thought this: it is an understandable mistake to make but the simple fact is that every build will have one-dimensional characters, even balanced builds. The reason for this is because certain dimensions (ie healing) are so important that they are worth devoting a single character to at the expense of utility. For instance, the monk is not going to be doing any damage, or pretty much anything other than making red bars go up, but that's ok because in the end, those red bars going up is pretty important.

So I think this leaves us saying, "Ok, we know what 'balanced builds' are and we want to promote these builds, now how do we do so?" I think the very first thing that absolutely must be done is to eliminate any kind of rewards for being inflexible. Here I am referring to the ability to choose a single map and create a build that will win specifically on that map. Guilds that do this are able to sacrifice flexibility because they know that their particular playstyle will be rewarded more often than not. Hence there is no real incentive to run a balanced build when you are able to pick the map you play on.

The first step to promoting balanced builds then, would be to eliminate this option by randomizing map choice, both in tournament and ladder play. Then teams would be forced to bring a flexible, balanced build which will be able to compete on any of the maps. Drew the Jade Isle? Better be able to fight 8v8. Drew the Frozen Isle? Better be able to split. Drew Nomad's? Better be able to protect your runner. Because guilds would have to prepare for these eventualities, they would have to run a balanced build that is able to switch tactics during a match.

Good points and I agree.

moriz · Mar 29, 2007, 09:00 PM // 21:00

randomizing map selection is a good start. however, it won't be able to solve the problem of gimick builds all by itself. take for example the old sb/ri build. it is actually possible to design it so it can pressure (heavy degen, anti-melee/anti-caster), spike (well, spike), as well as split. one of my old guilds actually routinely ran sb/ri on frozen isle, because the build in a 4 4 split formation could dominate the majority of our opponents on any front. failing that, the build was also flexible enough to go 7 1 or 6 2, having one or two hex gankers gank while the rest of the team focus on shutdown. was the build a ridiculous gimick? you bet. was it capable of adapting to different situations? yep. given the buffs to hexes in the recent updates, the build is probably more powerful than ever.

slightly off topic, but given my above example, can the sb/ri build be a "balanced" build as well? after all, it has most (if not all) of the features of a balanced build.

tomcruisejr · Mar 29, 2007, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

.....slightly off topic, but given my above example, can the sb/ri build be a "balanced" build as well? after all, it has most (if not all) of the features of a balanced build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

..So yes, if someone could design a build with 8 rit/ass that somehow was able to win based on varied tactics and player skill, it would be a balanced build. I don't believe that can happen due to game mechanics, but in theory at least a balanced build doesn't matter what it is made of, just how it works...

But when the OP suggests a definite composition of a balanced build, looks like sb/ri isnt.

Neo-LD · Mar 30, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Great OP. Nicely done. Now the trick will be to get Anet to do something about it.

Erydan · Apr 01, 2007, 06:43 PM // 18:43

I agree with you, completely.

However, i don't think it will change, because not everybody is sophisticated enough to appreciate the deep, complex mechanics of a balanced vs. balanced fight.

Spikers (or gimmicks) are not interested in tactics or high-level play. Their goal is winning, even at the cost of "fun" or "challenge". They play to "pwn" and a spike "pwns" people, so they're satisfied with it.

darkMishkin · Apr 02, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Great summary and discussion.

Also highlights to me once again how broken Assassin are, from concept. I would have liked a major overhaul of their mechanics, such as removing the requirement for each attack in a combo to hit, rather than the increase in damage numbers of the last skill update. They avoided the main problems of the class, choosing a quick fix instead.

First priority for me is randomising maps: what incentive is there to run a flexible build when you know you will be fighting 90% of your matches on Jade Isle?

Cass · Apr 03, 2007, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Nice thread!

Random thought on the expansions in this context: On the surface it seemed to me that the majority of the new classes (rit, sin, para, derv) are somewhat one-dimensional. But then again rits now also deal damage besides creating spirit forests, and paragons can also actually use their spears to hurt you, whilst they sing their songs of healing. Apart from the sin (who really seems to be all about spike), there is perhaps more potential for these classes in balanced play than what is commonly used today. It may actually be likely that more possible different roles of these newer classes are discovered over time.

Mylon · May 02, 2007, 09:25 PM // 21:25

I agree with the OP to some extent. If gimmicks win, then your win ratio would go down the toilet because it's all a matter of if you brought the gimmick that beats your opponent's gimmick and nothing more. If you don't have the proper gimmick, you're dead.

On the other side of the coin, a balance build shouldn't be so set in stone. It's actually sad how few skills there are that serve good versatility. In a game where one has to beat a variety of builds with only 64 skills, making skills do more than one thing is vital. In Magic: the Gathering, to avoid the gaming from being too gimmicky, rules were added to improve versatility. Now some cards can be played from the graveyard. Some cards can, if an extra cost is played, be played and retained. More lands have an ability. Practically all creatures have an ability. Some cards literally operate as two cards: Choose which of the two to use when the card is played. This helped prevent Magic from stagnating to whoever can get their gimmick in their 7 card hand and pull it off the quickest.

With all of the specific skills added to GW, all we're going to see is more powerful gimmicks. We need more skills with versatility or even more mechanics.

That, and I do think 8 skills is a bit restrictive. Players should be able to afford to bring skills they may not necessarily use. How else are skills like mantra of physical resistance or mantra of elemental resistance supposed to see use if they're so specific?

Patrograd · May 03, 2007, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Nice thread.

On the subject of hex builds being balanced, well, they are I suppose to a point. They can split in a limited way, and spike in a limited way, and play defensively or offensively as needed. When you play it though it doesnt really feel like a balanced build tbh, it feels like a heavy overpressure farming build. It is certainly much easier to win with hexes than it is with a "true" balanced build.

For me, balanced would be defined like this

As a strat caller, I hate having characters on my team that I cant really *do* anything with tactically, like Paragons for example. I like paras as a class, but what do you do with your para if you want to change something? I hate having flag runners that dont really give you the ability to do something different at the stand when they are there. I hate not having another character who can run flags just as well as my nominated flagger. I hate not being able to vary my split if I need different people in different places to create imbalances. I hate it if all my team can do tactically is push hard, if the only gear is fast forward.

Basically, if at any point in the battle I cant say "Right, this isnt working, lets change it" then I dont think I'm playing balanced.

Balanced is about toolbox builds isnt it? Characters built with a variety of flexible tools that can be used offensively, defensively or in split? Multi-dimensional.

Wasteland Squidget · May 03, 2007, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Hexes themselves aren't 'balanced' because most hex templates can't vary their offensive styles. As a curse necro, you're pretty much always going to be spamming degen and cursing the enemy melee. You don't vary it up because you're pushing or they're catching your spikes or whatever - you have your one trick, and if it works you win. If it doesn't work, you die.

Eurohex as a build has a few offensive options, but none of them come from the hexers. You could just as well replace the hexers with Searing Flames eles and call the build balanced. 2 warriors + one ranger + 2 monks will always have some decent variety in offensive options, but calling any build that uses those templates 'balanced' is a little sketchy.

It's no suprise that the only hex template to find its way into balanced builds is the water ele. Hex Snares can be used for a variety of purposes - they're good for pressuring, spiking, offense, defense, skirmish, and pretty much anything else you want. Water eles are versatile, curse necros and migraine mesmers aren't.

Byron · May 03, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

I always blamed Hexes' effectiveness on the fact that hex removal is underpowered. Monks simply don't have the options to put sufficient hex removal on their bar. How do we compensate? Signet of removal smiters or mesmers, purge signets on frontliners, convert hexes casters, etc. The skill or skills that should balance against hexes don't exist.

In other news, seeing the FFs v Honk game last night restored my faith in Guild Wars. That is what GvG should be.

masteroflife · May 03, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

hexes it self isn't overpowered. it was when hexes can be spammed is over powered. the soulreaping nerf stops a lot of dangerous hexes from being spammed, thus hex builds rarely work now.

Seamus Finn · May 03, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by masteroflife

hexes it self isn't overpowered. it was when hexes can be spammed is over powered. the soulreaping nerf stops a lot of dangerous hexes from being spammed, thus hex builds rarely work now.

Except the most predominant hex build in the game, eurohex. This is the build that defined the CT and even after some key nerfs it still works VERY well(if you have a lot of good interrupters the build is more manageable though, but not by much and you still need to outplay the hex build by quite a margin to hope for a win). Just look at some of the guilds that started tanking after people thought hexes were solved and recently picked teh build back up. People aren't metaed as hard against the build, but it is still overpowered, I think.

Genova · May 03, 2007, 08:17 PM // 20:17

I'm not an expert but don't think the build in itself is overpowered. Some minor adjustements like Reaper's mark recharge/casting time should fix it. I also think that mesmers are one of the key classes to look at when balancing the game. The illusion magic line still needs a major rework or buff and I will not mention the inspiration line which makes me sad each time I look at my mesmer. It will not be long before anything but domination as a mesmer is viable in GvG because of other classes' abuse. On a side note, what about making the fastcasting attribute increase the efficiency of all signets by +1...3 attribute points ? It seems that the devs want mesmers to be artificers (using a lot of signets), but making skills which don't beneficiate from primary attribute makes them nearly useless, and that's true for most classes. It could also allow mesmers to be good at using other classes signets, like they do with spells.

And for the love of what is good and fair, nerf soul reaping again... necros have nothing to do spirits that aren't alive to begin with, redo the whole ritualist class from scratch, and tweak assassins, dervs, paragons, kthx.

Farin · May 04, 2007, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Balanced builds make for the best matches period. You actually win with skill and not builds. BW= bad.

eoe · May 04, 2007, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

It's no suprise that the only hex template to find its way into balanced builds is the water ele. Hex Snares can be used for a variety of purposes - they're good for pressuring, spiking, offense, defense, skirmish, and pretty much anything else you want. Water eles are versatile, curse necros and migraine mesmers aren't.

I'm likely in the minority of opinions here, but I believe this thinking on the cow-hex pressure build (or Eurohex, whatever u call it) is very limited and not correct. The only part of the above that migraine and curse necros don't do is spike. In fact they both excel in skirmish for the same reason that water eles do well in skirmishes. The game does not provide for powerful enough hex removal and this is amplified in skirmishes not reduced. A skirmish between a crip slash, curses necro, and water/rit runner and the standard crip slash, burning, and water ele is won by the team with the curse necro every time (provided all other factors are equal). The migraine excels on the split if facing a warrior and two eles. Keep humility on the bsurge and shut the other one down.

The direct counter to the build is supposed to be NR/tranq (2 warriors, 2 paragons, and oath shot). However, the build is flexible enough to usually beat it on any splitable map by splitting the hexers away from wherever the oath shot is.

Anyway, from my point of view, the Eurohex build (2 warriors, ranger, migraine, curse, 2 monks, ele/rit) is extremely flexible in tactics. If you draw jade, you have a good chance to win. If you draw frozen, you also have a good chance to win. DT prefers this build simply because the game is not lost by map choice or whatever the other team is playing. I hate playing a 20-25 minute game knowing that you likely have lost before it starts. And yes our home map currently is corrupted just because we think we have a very good chance to force advantages on the split with this build.

pah01 · May 04, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by eoe

I'm likely in the minority of opinions here, but I believe this thinking on the cow-hex pressure build (or Eurohex, whatever u call it) is very limited and not correct. The only part of the above that migraine and curse necros don't do is spike. In fact they both excel in skirmish for the same reason that water eles do well in skirmishes. The game does not provide for powerful enough hex removal and this is amplified in skirmishes not reduced. A skirmish between a crip slash, curses necro, and water/rit runner and the standard crip slash, burning, and water ele is won by the team with the curse necro every time (provided all other factors are equal). The migraine excels on the split if facing a warrior and two eles. Keep humility on the bsurge and shut the other one down.

The direct counter to the build is supposed to be NR/tranq (2 warriors, 2 paragons, and oath shot). However, the build is flexible enough to usually beat it on any splitable map by splitting the hexers away from wherever the oath shot is.

Anyway, from my point of view, the Eurohex build (2 warriors, ranger, migraine, curse, 2 monks, ele/rit) is extremely flexible in tactics. If you draw jade, you have a good chance to win. If you draw frozen, you also have a good chance to win. DT prefers this build simply because the game is not lost by map choice or whatever the other team is playing. I hate playing a 20-25 minute game knowing that you likely have lost before it starts. And yes our home map currently is corrupted just because we think we have a very good chance to force advantages on the split with this build.

I think you are almost correct here when you state that the eurohex is a fairly balanced build in the fa. It does have the ability to change tactics etcetera.
However a Character that doesnt have the ability to output some damage in a spike isnt a character worth bringing in a truly balanced build.

However the problem here isnt just about what is balanced(in terms of changing match tactics and full team builds) but whether or not a character can play offensively as well as defensively. A curses necro is not balanced in that it has one job and one job only - hex some poor melee bastard(s) to hell. Just because he can do it(hex a warrior) on a split does not mean that his template is balanced. It just means that he isn't entirely one dimensional.

Concurrently A water ele can split, can spike, can control melee, can snare offensively and defensively which is what balanced templates are meant to do. A curses bar is not useful so much in an offensive push.

Not only that the game should be about skill use rewarding individual player skill as much as possible. The fact that water snares and dom hexes do this is due to the fact that they are debilitating but last for short periods of time - thereby rewarding timing. Diversion/Shame and snares are great examples of hexes working as they should.

Curses dont do this as much due to the fact that its debilitating hexes last upto 30 seconds. This is a fire cover hex then forget.

Joe

-Pluto- · May 04, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

The fact that water snares and dom hexes do this is due to the fact that they are debilitating but last for short periods of time - thereby rewarding timing. Diversion/Shame and snares are great examples of hexes working as they should.

You mean like the icy shackle ele who chains it on a runner with freezing gust to perma-snare someone for 3 minutes?

And Mantra of Recovery memsers who try to sit on a monk and chain those two great examples of hexes done right on a target over and over and over again?